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  #1  
Old 05-20-2018, 02:22 PM
f33d f33d is offline
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Default Working around the randomization-limitations?

I am checking out the demo of Numerology 4 at the moment & soon stumbled upon a randomization-limit:

manual:
"In all cases, the generator algorithms only modify the parameters that are critical for the algorithm to do achieve it’s musical goals. This means that you can significantly alter the type of pattern generated by manually setting other parameters. For instance, none of the MonoNote generators currently set sequencer direction, key, octave, note quantization, skip steps, mute steps, random jump, groove, repeat or divide. In addition, none of the algorithms set the length of the sequence (or the start and end points). By settings these parameters yourself, either before or after you run the generator, you can significantly influence the results. "

the reasoning behind this is also explained this way:
"The “Rnd” (randomize) generators are all pure parameter randomizations. They vary only in the number of parameters randomized. In addition, the randomization of many parameters is limited to avoid extreme cases"

Honestly I came to Numerology in search of options for such extreme cases. I am just a sucker of randomization, probably not everybody is.

So for me at least, this just begs for a feature to create custom randomization algorithms deciding what to include/exclude yourself,
like in the Evolve-feature, but with all options & total randomization.
(Midi-Controlling min / max values of randomization would rock even more, but this is not my personal dream-land is it? )

Let me explain my problem some more:

I understand that I can randomize a certain step/function by assigning a S&H modulator e.g for note-quantization, but then I got to add sooo many running LFOs instead of simply clicking "random". Also in the Groove-Option, e.g. I'd have to add a LFO-modulator to every step of the sequencer as far as I can see. That would be alltogether >9000 S&H LFOs... & my CPU 2.9 GHz Intel Core 7 seems already busy with 4 LFOs. Not to mention managing that many LFOs. Is there an easier option? Unfortunately not many options in "evolve" either. Would be cool to see over there all the "blocked from randomization" parameters.

After digging a bit deeper I found a more elegant way than lots of S&Hs would be paramod: e.g. taking the randomized CV1 from the MonoNote through paramod into the "rnd-blocked" parameter, say, "Divide" then taking CV2 into the 2nd paramod channel to modulate the ParamIndex to get to all the steps of Divide, but this results for me somehow in mild alterations of Divide-steps, some steps even not changing at all, not sure why this is. Maybe you Numerology-Ninjas can point me to a much better workaround to find my totally randomized sequencer path?
THANKS!
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  #2  
Old 05-26-2018, 07:19 AM
f33d f33d is offline
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really nobody?
c'mon dear numerology users, any ideas?
maybe you know why modulating the paramindex + steps, by randomly generated sequences doesn't work out as "randomizing all steps" step after step?
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  #3  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:36 AM
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jue jue is online now
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Hello,

Sorry but were is the limitation? Could not see your problem.
If I need a lot of modules I use them, ok it needs some work and the ideas to connect them but everything is possible. Have projects were several hundred modules are used without any problem. Think it is up to you to make your ideas possible. If you are looking for extreme cases you are free to built them.
One information if you really go extrem, some were between 500 to 500 modules the automatic connections between the modules got lost if you copy a stack but you can manually fix it.

This is not a one touch button sequenzer, its a complete Modular Step Sequencer environment.

hope this helps
best
jue
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:37 AM
jim jim is offline
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There are a few easy tricks you can do to 'expand' the randomization of a pattern.

First, of course, the the "RndAll" generator covers Pitch, Gate, Velocity, Divide (a bit), CVs 1-3 and ChPress. If you take the CV outputs and assign them to synth parameters (cutoff, attack, decay, etc), you'll be adding quite a bit of variation to a melodic line than you would get otherwise.

You can also do 'Add Modulation' and use a sequencer on parameters like Rate, Direction, Key, Scale, Octave, etc. Program the added Mod Seq with a linear or semi-random pattern and set it's direction mode to 'Random' -- have it run fast or slow, either way it will weird things up quickly. Also: randomizing sequencer rate is very similar to randomizing StepLen.

Ditto for RandJmp -- it only take a few of those to change things up.

Cheers,
Jim
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  #5  
Old 05-28-2018, 01:44 PM
f33d f33d is offline
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thanks for the replies!
@jue, my problem is: "& my CPU 2.9 GHz Intel Core 7 seems already busy with 4 LFOs. "
is it really no problem for your CPU to add 200-500 LFOs? Maybe something is wrong with my computer...

@jim, yeah I jumped on RndAll as soon as I opened Numerology for the first time, but soon found out RndAll is not really RndAll

I understand, that for some parameters which are not included in RndAll I can "add Modulation", but adding a sequencer I am stuck with having to "randomly program" it time & time again which does not make sense in a performance setting when I want to randomize quickly - random direction is not really fresh randomization.... so I can add S&H LFOs, but they are heavy on CPU, but ok as jue pointed out 200 LFOs should be no problem... but what about the rest where no "add Modulation" option is available?

here is a concrete example:
how I would go about randomizing "repeat" of "mononote"?
Only (failed) solution I found I wrote about in my first post & but I try to explain it more thoroughly:
I use CV1 & CV2 of MonoNote which I can conveniently randomize with RndAll. Then I connect CV1 through ParaMod to StepRepeat (setting min to 1 - max value to 8) & additionally to reach all 16 steps of StepRepeat I connect CV2 to ParamIndex of the ParamMod (min 1 - max 16). So in theory a random value of CV1 should set the step value and the random value of CV2 sets which step out of 16, but what I actually get that step 9 jumped to value 5 & step 16 to value 6 & no any firther randomization of StepRepeat happens. I don't know why. I see that the play-direction is fwd, so no randomization of the index seems to take place... so it looks like I don't understood it correctly.
So what would be a working way to randomize parameters of MonoNote where I can't "add Modulation"? That would be:
Groove
StepLen
Repeat
Divide
Probability
RandJmp
Pitch Glide

It would be great for me to be able to perform randomization of those parameters via midi separately. It would be part of performing itself aka "playing the sequencer"... I know that I could setup a midi-controller like nano control to represent all this in a sequencer (that would be 7 sequencers for all this parameters) & set all values of respective parameters by myself, but I just love surprises & randomization. Numerology seems so close to this dream, but I can't figure out how.
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:52 AM
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jue jue is online now
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Hello,
working on a small project this morning on a MacBook Air 1,6 GHz i5,
8 Stacks with 52 Numerology and AU modules
1 Stack for reverb
resulting in a 75% CPU load.
Without the reverb the CPU goes down to 50%,
So I think there is something wrong with your Computer / AU settings.
If there is some time today I will make you complete randomized MonoNote example, you want a one button solution or do you need a always live modulation of all parameters?
best
jue
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Old 05-29-2018, 02:58 AM
f33d f33d is offline
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wow so many AUs - Numerology seems to be quite efficient!

its too kind of you to help me with a custom example, very much appreciated - it would also help me to learn numerology.

my goal was to have a one button-randomize solution for all the different parameters separately, each at a time, so I can randomize each one with its own dedicated midi-button. then do performance-experiments to find out which ones are useful to randomize separately & incorporate those in my setup, while summerizing all the others together with one button. the RndAll is already lots of fun, even though it summarizes a few parameters under one umbrella (the rnd-algorithms on the other hand are too specified for me).
So that leaves me with all the parameters I can't randomize with dedicated buttons yet:

Groove
StepLen
Repeat
Divide
Probability
RandJmp
Pitch Glide

I already found "1/x" which seems to randomize the note only, so I can separate it from "RndAll".

Generally, if I know how to "randomize on midi-button press" one parameter like Repeat or Divide, which have no "addModulation" & many steps - I can do it for the rest, so you won't have to do so much work.
It would be also cool to know how to generate a rnd-value on button press (with the S&H?), so I could use it for those parameters who have the add-Modulation option, to randomize on button press. I thought running the S&H in manual mode would have some kind of "manual advance on button press"-function, but it is about following the general transport.

Numerology surprised me with all the functionality. It seems to have so much features I miss in Ableton Live (even with M4L).
Maybe I can even patch-up randomization of my favorite AUs?

Last edited by f33d; 05-29-2018 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 05-29-2018, 04:12 AM
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jue jue is online now
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Hello,

Yes you can randomize every parameter with a dedicated button. But you need more than a button alone, you will see within the example later.
Yes you can even patch-up randomization to your favorite AUs the same way.

You wrote:
Numerology surprised me with all the functionality
Yes its a universe of possibilities......

best
jue
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  #9  
Old 05-29-2018, 05:07 PM
f33d f33d is offline
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very cool!
I continued working on my goals, couldn't wait, lol, numerology is the first audio software I have fun playing/learning without any sound.

this are the news in my randomization quest:
CV out of MonoNote has to be scaled with the setting Scale: 2 Offset: -1 before going into ParamMod to work in the full range. Together with modulation of the Index as described above it seems like a viable way now to randomize some of the parameters, which have no "addModulation". Not sure if it is the most elegant way.

as for "randomization on button press" following works: button box, set, e.g. button 1 to momentary and connect its CV1 to trigger in of a MonoNote, which has to be set to the mode CV Trig: Step, then using its CV outs as "random values on button press" connecting it through ParamMod to a Target Parameter one would like to "randomly change on button press". (here again CVout from MonoNote has to go through Scale & Offset first before ParamMod)

I stumbled upon two peculiarities:
1) The "Rate" of MonoNote-Sequencer is called "ClockDiv" in the Target Param area which I found out via trial & error as I found nothing about it in the manual via word-search. This is quite counter-intuitive - what is the reasoning behind it? Are there more Target Params which are named differently than their actual Parameters? Where can I find the whole overview?

2) The reason I use MonoNote's CV-out in my "randomly change on button press"-function is because the StepSequencer has no randomization option, which disqualifies it for me as a modulation-source all together, even though it could be perfect (slew! yay + built in ParamMod) & more straight forward than running a whole MonoNote through ParamMod for this rather simple task. This would be my feature request for version5 (or did I miss this option somewhere?).

3) I loaded a VERY big sample (over 3h) into the SampleKit & wow, it plays + start time can be modulated, so cool, but it seems like it is played back in 8bit or some kind of bit-reduction/ sample-rate-reduction taking place - is it because the file is so big? + when trying to dump a, smaller wav-file Numerology quits due to an error... but then works again. Another big file plays also "bit-reduced" & stops after a loud click.

4) Loop-Length sets automatically to 0.1 when modulating Start for a while - it looked to me like it happens when start-point jumps to the end, so there can not be any loop-length at all... so it sets to 0.1? But then it has to be set manually to another value.

My amazement continues to grow. I was building my Eurorack-Modular for a couple of years now, feeling like I am failing all the time. Now I see Numerology does everything I thought Eurorack would do, while in Eurorack it is impossible or in a VERY cumbersome/big/expensive way. A worked out, full Numerology-Performance-Patch + a properly configured multi-scene Midi-Controller does probably for me something a Wall-Sized-Eurorack would do. Damn... on the other hand I would not understand Numerology without my troublesome Euro-quest.

BTW I looked into Numerology a couple of years ago, but it came over as a "complex sequencer" via how it presents itself "in the market" which I found only mildly interesting, while in reality it is a completely modular DAW. It would be infinite ton of work to put this system together in maxmsp or reaktor, which would be the only way I know of...
Dear Jim, you should rename it in version 5 to Understatementlogy.

Last edited by f33d; 05-29-2018 at 06:46 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-30-2018, 12:10 AM
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Hello,
see that you do not need an example! You are on your way!
And yes there are some difficulties with different names when you use the ParaMod connections.
Have a look to the CV Sequencers, they could also been triggered by step and been used as modulation or trigger source then, connect to a ParamMod module and go. They are much more CPU friendly than always using MonoNotes.
A project with 60 CV Seqs, a few Button Boxes a MonoNote and a Apple Synth DLS is here between 5 to 8 % CPU.

best
jue
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