Numerology Store    Download  Video    Forum


Go Back   Five12.net -- Online Forum for the Numerology Music Sequencer > Numerology > General Questions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-09-2018, 10:31 AM
eenixon eenixon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
Default MIDI and/or CV output to 'the World'

Just to update this thread for posterity.

There's a new Rack Extension for Reason users that does CV input and output. The docs are sketchy at this point but the claims are made that it talks to DC-coupled interfaces, Expert Sleepers gear. But also does 'CV' internally into and out of VST plugins such as Reaktor -- not clear how that is configured. Perhaps Numerology. And using Soundflower to external apps via audio channels; their video shows a connection to VCV Rack.

Link: http://roboticbean.com/creative/products/cv-io/

Hopefully the documentation will improve soon.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-09-2018, 11:51 AM
dpcoffin dpcoffin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 18
Default

Cool beans Thanks for the head's up!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:02 AM
eenixon eenixon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
Default MIDI and/or CV ouput to 'the World'

From the VCV Rack group feed on FB:

I'm told -- by one of the 'Bean' product people -- that he set up the Silent Way rack extension between Reason and VCV Rack, calibrated it as one does with the physical device, and "it works perfectly!" Presumably, this is facilitated through a network of 'virtual' channels configured with Soundflower or Jack.

I'm going to review the Five12 videos on Numerology with modular. But, sadly, the VST wrapper in Reason is still in the stone age with respect to inputs and outputs. On the other hand, in a more VST environment, maybe the Silent Way VST can be put into service.

Convergence, some would call it Integration, is exciting. Or so I think.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-11-2018, 02:23 PM
dpcoffin dpcoffin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 18
Default

Watching this thread with intense interest, thanks for the news! Wish I had more time to experiment myself; soon, I hope.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-12-2018, 01:30 PM
jim jim is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 4,372
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eenixon View Post
* Can I use, for example, an unused Saphire Pro channel or Jack to move Numerology's CVAudio data stream into an other application, for example the present subject, VCV Rack? In other words, is the concern of DC-coupled circuit something I should worry about.
I don't think so. Normally audio outputs have what are called "DC blocking capacitors" to keep them from outputting DC signals -- which are potentially dangerous to speakers.

The best cheap option for DC-capable interfaces are MOTU 828s -- you'll need to hand-wire cables -- dig around on the Expert Sleepers website for details.

The best option overall is to get one of the Expert Sleepers modules -- I think one of the new ones is actually pretty cheap.

Now: all that is for getting Numerology CV directly to a modular. -- VCV rack or other software is different...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eenixon View Post
* Could I simply route CVAudio output from Numerology running in VST mode to another track in, say, Live or Reaper, and see it interpreted as modulation signal? Or does it have to be re-purposed somehow? If so, how?
You could do that only with something that can take an audio signal in and convert it into something that it can use internally for modulation -- both Reaktor and Max can do that pretty easily (via an Envelope Follower).

Quote:
Originally Posted by eenixon View Post
So much of this is ambiguous (confused?) to me because it's MIDI, MIDI, MIDI all the way down. For example, the guy at Dialog Audio said they use 14-bit MIDI so the modulation is "nice and smooth." I didn't know there was such a thing. And I don't know what it means or why you'd bother if all you need is 128 discreet and integral values.
Yes, it can indeed be confusing -- see dpcoffin's repost of my comments from another thread. It all depends on what you're seeking to modulate. Surprisingly often, regular MIDI CCs are fine.

Cheers,
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-12-2018, 03:50 PM
eenixon eenixon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
Default MIDI and/or CV output to 'the World'

I'm getting confused about what I've updated you on. If this repeats info in this thread or some other one I've lost track of, please excuse.

* the Silent Way Voice Rack Extension can be connected to VCV Rack using, in my case, Jack, although someone on the VCV Rack FB group got results with Loopback. Soundflower is also an option and is the recommended option of the Robotic Bean guys who developed the VC to Audio / Audio to VC Rack extension -- same general idea, use Jack or analogous app.

So it's pretty primitive at this point, but you can sequence and trigger a VCO in VCV Rack from Reason using Silent Way. And route the sound back to Reason, optionally for recording. You can modulate VCV Rack modules using the Robotic Bean extension. Or vice-versa.

But that's Reason... this is the Numerology Forum...

* the Silent Way AU plugin can be configured in Numerology to connect to, calibrate and sequence/trigger a VCO in VCV Rack. Managed it the PM. Again rough and ready, mainly because of my ignorance of the N sequencer and CV capabilities. (Back to the tutorials.)

I had some questions about use-cases, calibration, etc. that I put to Andrew Ostler, Mr Silent Way:

a) he didn't see any problems with using Silent Way with virtual channels and synths, "it's all electronic..." etc.

b) the AU/VST calibration can be saved as a text file which, in turn, can be edited. You'll find information about this on the Silent Way web site. There are examples of alternate or micro tuning calibrations that create, for example, 7 or 12 step Just tunings/scales. And, most significantly to me, he is just about to release a new version of Silent Way that will load Scala .tun or .scl files! Meaning you can use any of the hundreds of tunings available from the Scala website. _And_ you can define your own tunings with the Scala application (and a bit of swatting up on what they mean and how they're constructed.)

Unfortunately, it doesn't look as if saving and loading calibrations/tunings is currently a feature of the Rack Extension. But maybe that will change.

So, a storm in a bottle perhaps; a bit of a pain and learning curve. Ultimately, just another set of options for getting the kind of sounds you're looking for.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:08 AM
eenixon eenixon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
Default MIDI and/or CV output to 'the World'

Thought you'd got rid of me, eh! No such luck.

Here are two links to a video tutorial series from Molten Modular:

* this one attempts to explain the concept of DC Coupled audio (and does a pretty reasonable job.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buf04Y0vc3U

You might be interested in looking down at the comments for an exchange between the video guy and Andrew Ostler, Mr Expert Sleepers, on some details about some ES hardware modules.

* this one talks about AC Coupled audio and explains one method of overcoming the 'limitation' its LP noise reduction filtering design imposes on CV signals, i.e., the _real_ voltage type signals. Again, the comments are very useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXiezcEOU4&t=1070s

Of course, in theory, none of this is of any interest to someone who can't afford a modular rig, like me. The question for the person relegated to the digital world is: where in CV do binary bits end and electrical voltages begin? And can I, if possible, ignore the electrical voltages part in trying to get the results I want? As one commenter in the second video says, "the whole CV thing is a mess."

We have highly functional CV tools in Numerology; we have highly functional CV tools in Reason (and apparently BitWig Studio); we have highly functional CV tools in VCV Rack. All software. And never the three shall meet, at least in an official, organized fashion.

One postscript: there will be no further development of the Silent Way Reason Rack Extension. (Perhaps there's a hope that Reason's VST functionality will improve to what we're used to in other DAWs and expect from the standard.)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-13-2018, 03:29 PM
dpcoffin dpcoffin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eenixon View Post
We have highly functional CV tools in Numerology; we have highly functional CV tools in Reason (and apparently BitWig Studio); we have highly functional CV tools in VCV Rack. All software. And never the three shall meet, at least in an official, organized fashion.
I bet that "never" is wrong; seems inevitable to me, and the RoboticBean stuff is but the first snowflake in the coming avalanche, or snowball at least. I spent a few days messaging with Robin Vincent of MoltenModular, who seemed like the best blogger/explainer to get on board about software CV, and it was a failure; he thought the whole idea of DAWs talking to DAWs was crazy and pointless…until I shared your tip about RBean's new option; seemed to perk him up a bit, but not much.

It did feel like an instructive failure: Hardware guys just don't see the point…yet, perhaps simply because they feel hardware being superior to software is the ONLY point. Really surprised me, tho, that a hardware advocate of Softube Modular as a gateway drug and a learning tool and of CV as more interesting than MIDI, both of which Robin has been vocal about, would be so resistant.

Last edited by dpcoffin; 02-15-2018 at 02:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:06 AM
eenixon eenixon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 77
Default MIDI and/or CV output to 'the World'

Hardware vs Software...

I've spent a lot of time in photography circles and from that experience the distinction between analog and digital is highly charged. E.g., there is no monochrome image better than one taken on Kodak Tri-X, pushed by two stops, developed in Rodinol, 3:2, printed on Ilford Lustre, processed in more Rodinol -- to those analog photographers out there, apologies: I never had a darkroom and I couldn't find any confirmatory links from a Google search. I think you can still buy Rodinol but Ilford is long gone both film and developer paper.

It's a similar situation with electronic music: analog vs digital can be a flash point. Arguably, the only context in which it might make a difference is in a live performance situation where the entire signal chain can be legislated analog. If you believe in the superiority of analog sound that is. And, of course, live performance is at the root of the whole tree.

Otherwise, there is so much intermediation, back-and-forth, between analog and digital, one medium's superiority over another is hard the sustain.

But, at the end of the day and for better or worse, digital is likely more 'plastic' (in the sense of many discrete, moving and connectable parts) and less expensive than analog. In general. It's just a convenient and practical necessity for me.

(It occurs to me again that we've likely wandered far off the path of 'General Questions' and into 'General Discussion.' Maybe this thread should be moved.)

Last edited by eenixon; 02-14-2018 at 07:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-14-2018, 09:18 PM
dpcoffin dpcoffin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 18
Default

I just read some illuminating-to-me posts on hard vs soft modulars in the NI Reaktor forum, here:
http://tinyurl.com/ydachwle

Seems not to be about analog vs digital, at least for those posters, rather about hands-on physicality. A/D's never been a convincing problem to me, in any area (also a photographer, pro for publication for 20+ years, smack in the middle of the shift from film—in that world, quality went up, SO many problems went away when digital arrived).

Anyway, I'm not into belaboring that distinction, either way, and wouldn't follow any new threads here on it.

I'm with you on the simple practical necessity of using software as well as being perfectly happy with that. I'm just totally with you, too, on how there needs to be a way for these amazing virtual CV tools to directly connect, and a bit baffled why it hasn't happened yet, or even been seen as an interesting opportunity/problem. I think that tide is changing, though
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.